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Writing/RPing tip: ''Mary-Sues'' by StickieBun13 Writing/RPing tip: ''Mary-Sues'' by StickieBun13
So, I have been seeing a lot of hate going around when it comes to Fandom OCs. and a lot of times the "Sue" title gets thrown out there for no reason but simply the character being an OC. Here a little rant/education about "Sues" and OCs I wrote on someone's journal (Who shall remain nameless unless they, themselves wish to have their name shown.

"Honestly... Every writer/Role Player has at least one "Mary-sue" character, weather they are a canon character or an OC. Its part of learning. My own was particularly bad and looking back at her she is painful to me. but over time characterization becomes easier to people and those Mary Sues develop into more rounded characters, and the characters to follow get even better. there is nothing wrong with having a sue. and if someone points out your character is a sue, take it into consideration and try to improve if said person has been role playing with you or has been reading your fiction for a good amount of time and has therefore given your oc a proper chance before labeling it as such! People who do not give your character a chance at all before ringing the Sue alarm should be ignored. Maybe even ask a writer you trust. 

Writing and Characterization, like anything else, takes practice. Do not close your mind off to criticism. It can help, even if it may feel a bit bitter at the time. Ask for real constructive criticism from people. have them tell you what you are doing right, what they like about your character, and where you could improve. It's a useful took in your art."

(Note; I talked to this person about their OC and read a little bit of their literature containing said OC. I did not see in that exert any REAL "Sue" problems. Characterization had seemed good. It seemed more like the "sue" title was tossed out unfairly.)

Let me expand upon this.

A Mary Sue is an idealized character representing the author (Or "self-insertion") or other-wise a character who is too perfect/lacks realistic flaws. Or their only flaws are used to make their character more desirable. Often times They catch *love interest's* eye quickly, even if they are supposed to be unpopular or not "good looking". Personally, I think the most famous Sue is Bella Swan from Twilight There are many other phrases for "Sues" as well (Example; Gary-Stue, Marty-stue.) 

People, please give people's OCs a real chance and give a real Constructive Critique to the writer/RPer. If you do feel the OC is a Sue, then please tell them what you like about the character and then how they can improve upon their character. Help them, don't hurt them.

As mentioned, I had a Sue or two... and dear fuck! were they bad. But I had someone help me improve. Sure, I had some people sending me hate (One even said that my OC was so bad it made them want to commit a ritualistic suicide with a rusty knife.) But I had this one nice writer who had been around a while. She came in and gave me pointers. I forgot about giving up, and I worked hard to improve. And now? Now I get people coming to me for advice in writing and characterization. (And I am happy to help)

Also, please note that Not all Fancharacters are self-insertions (And therefore are Sues) All characters are part of us as writers. it's unavoidable. All writers are like that. There is a piece of the writer in everything they write. a piece of the artist in everything they draw/paint. It's what makes it special.

Now, if reading an OC fanfic or RPing with an OC isn't your thing, than thats perfectly fine. :) (Smile) However, please don't condemn the OC without giving it a chance. If it's not your thing, then please simply say you prefer not to RP with OCs or read OC fics, don't go condemning a potentially great character as a Sue when you know nothing about him or her.

The creators of said OCs put a lot of work into their character, weather the character is a sue or not doesn't mean anything. They worked hard, poured their heart and soul into them. Don't discourage them. It takes a huge amount of courage for a writer to put their OC out in the Public eye Trust me on this. They are bearing themselves, placing themselves in a vulnerable spot. You should at least respect that.

I myself have not presented any of my OCs (Fan or otherwise) as a main character since I was in my own Sue stage of writing. I keep them to the background as characters you do not even see much and therefore, their characterization stays mute. No judgment upon them at all, hardly. But soon, with the help of some good friends and supporters, I will be exposing myself again in the same way all these other OC writers do. I'm nervous as Hell to be doing it, but I hope that people will judge my Fancharacter for Kuroshitsuji as they would a Canon Character, and not just slap him in the face with the label of "Sue"

Might scrap soon.
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:iconactinium97:
actinium97 Featured By Owner Jul 22, 2014
Personally I think it would be best to totally get rid of the term "Mary Sue" along with all other Fan Slang terms and just use normal language, (including "everyday"  slang if wanted), for comments and criticism of fan stories and art!!!!!!!!!!
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Edited Jul 23, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I see nothing wrong with the terms, to be honest. It's not a negative term, it's simply a beginner's stage of writing. People would judge OCs and fan characters as sues without giving them a chance no matter what a sue is called. We need to focus more on opening people's minds enough to where they would at least give OCs a chance before saying they aren't written well.

It's like the women who have attempted to ban the word "Bossy" because they say it's sexist. "Bossy" is a gender-neutral word that isn't harmful at all. and if they are insulted by that word, then no matter what they will be insulted by whatever replaces it, even if it's the definition of the word "someone who gives people orders and who wants things their own way." Changing the word or banning the word doesn't make what the word represents go away. It solves nothing.
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:iconactinium97:
actinium97 Featured By Owner Jul 23, 2014
I do understand what you are saying. I know fan slang is not always negative, but - and this is just a personal view - it always reads like that to me. I also think it could confuse anyone new to fan art and fiction who wasn't familiar  the terms, even make them feel a bit "left out". I would not say "ban it" except to respectfully request that it isn't used when commenting on any of my posts, (except of course discussions on the subject)!  May I also say it's just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to those who are happy with it!
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:iconactinium97:
actinium97 Featured By Owner Jul 23, 2014
Sorry - hat sounds like I was contradicting myself!  By getting rid of fan slang I was thinking more of fan communities opting not to use it rather than an actual ban on websites like this one,
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:iconroxaspikachu:
RoxasPikachu Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Professional Traditional Artist
Note : MARY SURE IS JUST A IDIOT NAME , ITS NOT REAL 
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
....What? Sorry, I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, or joking, or defencive... or... what ;A;

(And my Grandmother's name had been Maryanne so... Mary is a real name. "Mary-sue" is just the term that was given for these type of characters. I don't know when or why, but yeah. if you were joking or something please ignore this. IDK.)
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:iconroxaspikachu:
RoxasPikachu Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Professional Traditional Artist
will im a real mary sue maker and look my page.
people must not take " mary sue " as a real rule of DA , look my journals
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm still slightly confused.

What do you mean by "people must not take " mary sue " as a real rule of DA"?

I was not bashing Sue characters. This writers tip is talking about how people need to treat people with a little more respect when it comes to their OCs Sue or not. Mary Sues get a lot of hate, and some OCs get hate because they are assumed to be a sue character even if they are not because people wont give them a chance before hating on the character. 

I feel that it should stop.
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:iconactinium97:
actinium97 Featured By Owner Edited Jul 23, 2014
I think it would stop if no-one used the term "Mary Sue" any more - then, I feel, they would just consider weather the character was well or badly written, how they could be improved, etc.
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:iconroxaspikachu:
RoxasPikachu Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Professional Traditional Artist
will if you as me , the sue is just a oc like any oc .
i mean lets say my oc , her name is roxas ( like from kh )
and shes lv 606 and she is the must powerful pokemon .
ok i know its to mush but yes shes a sue.

thats why im try to make people Acceptance the ocs even if they a sues

as for taking sur as real rule , will lots of my friends feel like they are been trolled by that name and that maked me feel like all the people in da want make the ocs the same as real life , got it?
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I think you are missing my points, here.

and just so you know, "Mary-Sue" is not just a thing on DA It's a term used all over the internet used to describe characters who seem unrealistic in characterization. 

YES "Mary-sues" are OCs like other OCs. Their creator puts a lot of hard work into them, as I stated above. and people needs to respect people and their OCs more. That's my whole point with this. Characterization is something writers learn and improve on Not all OCs have "bad characterization" but most are treated that way without thought and called a sue unfairly.

I am calling people out on something I feel needs to be addressed. I'm not hating on "sues" or their creators.  but "Sues" do exist as its simply a term for characters that are a little lacking in characterization and could use a little improvement. Not hate.
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:iconroxaspikachu:
RoxasPikachu Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014  Professional Traditional Artist
o...........................................k?
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:iconwarriorcats16678:
warriorcats16678 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Student Writer
Oh my god, yes! People need to stop bashing other people's characters. It's a little immature. Although I'm guilty of doing it when I first started out, however I've learned how to give more constructive criticism. Looking back on it I feel really bad. But some people won't even take constructive criticism, they just start cussing you out. It's really kind of annoying. I'd be glad the person took the time to read through your work and offer advice.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
yeah Its rude when someone gets defensive about their character when you aren't bashing their character but simply trying to help them improve. When you post something publicly you are opening yourself up to comments that are good and bad, helpful and condemning. the helpful comments are what you want the most, you shouldn't push those aside saying they are condemning.
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:iconwarriorcats16678:
warriorcats16678 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Student Writer
Yeah. I agree. I guess different people are more defensive than others, but when I show their work to other people you KNOW eventually you're going to get negative feedback, whether the comments are correct or not that a different story.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Exactly.

I'm actually getting ready to start posting a Fic where my own OC is a main character. I haven't publicly posted something with a big OC in it in years (Small background OCs, yes. but thats about it.) I'm confident he's not a stue but, I am putting him out there and I can be a little sensitive if a negative comment comes at the wrong time. I'm also nervous that people won't like him. but, come the 25th, the first chapter is being posted anyway. Here's hoping I can ignore the negative comments XD
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:iconwarriorcats16678:
warriorcats16678 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Student Writer
XD I hope you get a lot of positive feedback. Also, you're your own worst critique... usually. Anyway, good luck and thx for writing that thing about Mary-Sues.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Thanks ^^ and you're welcome ^^
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:iconmerilintinkus:
Merilintinkus Featured By Owner Aug 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I have helped one person with her her oc once , she had  something similar to a sue at first  (even was on the mary sues list ) but now she is not a sue just a normal oc 
I know a person that says that her oc is not a sue and yet everyone keep calling her oc a mary sue 
I offered my help but she said that she doesn't want to change her oc , but  now she is famous, but her oc is the same sue :( 
she even had received some hate art about her oc  and a lot of people keep saying that her oc is not a sue but only her supporters and friends say that but i think they say it because she is their  friend and they do not want to hurt her 
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Aug 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Yeah, It can be hard to tell a friend that their character is a sue. I have a friend that no matter how long she writes, she never improves her characters and though her writing goes up in quality, her characters hold her back because they are all sues/stues/self-inserts. one friend and I tried to help her and point this out to her but she only got ticked off at us We had only wanted to help her.
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:iconmerilintinkus:
Merilintinkus Featured By Owner Aug 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
yeah its sad 
i just found a new sue here on da , she is a writer , she writes with poor grammar and curses everywhere , and if you would look at the comment you would think that there are insults about how crappy it is but there isn't well there is a little but mostly its just normal comments  take a look twilightrova.deviantart.com/ar…
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:iconirisedenvenus:
iRiSEdEnVeNuS Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013
I agree with you completely. 100 percent. *nods*

I saw a blog or something on tumblr dedicated to bashing people's OC's which they believe to be Mary-Sue's, and they called some characters Mary-Sue's because of their NAMES. I, of course, found that to be completely unreasonable. How do names make people Mary-Sue's? If anyone knows how...then enlighten me. I dare you.

They were being completely rude about it, and only pointed out the wrongs - not the rights. They were being unreasonable and rude, and even though my OC's didn't get bashed, I'm still quite angry about it. Anyone who likes those posts needs to read this right now (though I doubt they'll change, based on what I've seen).

Thanks so much for posting this. You're awesome, bro. ^^

(Oh, and don't be nervous about posting your OC up. I'm sure he'll be awesome. I'd love to give him some constructive criticism when you post him up so that he won't receive negative feedback, if that's okay with you). :D
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Uhhhh maybe if the name is actually "Mary-Sue?" IDK (That still doesn't make their personality that of a sue character. its just their name) That Tumblr blog is so disrespectful. I believe I have seen it. or one like it, at least.

What do you mean? like when i have the fic posted or a character sheet? The fic is already 13 chapters long at this point.  I'm mostly nervous because he's a FanCharacter for Black Butler.
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:iconirisedenvenus:
iRiSEdEnVeNuS Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013
A character sheet is what I had in mind, but a fic is fine, too. Are you going to post your fic on Fanfiction? :D
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Yes, :3

and IDK, I might make an updated Character sheet for Jase if I get over my Writer's block. (My old one for him is really out of date. things have been changed, and he's evolved and developed since then.)
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:iconirisedenvenus:
iRiSEdEnVeNuS Featured By Owner Jul 27, 2013
Alright. I'll keep an eye out for both. ^^
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Sep 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
fav.me/d6mhizs First chapter is up! There are links in the Artist comment to it on FF.net and Archive if you'd rather read it there if you are still interested in having a look.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 28, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
oKay ^^ I may link you to it if I remember
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:iconirisedenvenus:
iRiSEdEnVeNuS Featured By Owner Jul 28, 2013
Okey-dokey! ^^
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:iconhikazeprincess:
HikazePrincess Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist

ive never really created a character that represents me.....at least not that im aware

my characters are definitely not 100% perfect either

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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It doesn't mean that people wouldn't claim your character is a Sue without actually learning the character. That's one of the big reasons I wrote this. People are so quick to condemn OCs.
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:iconhikazeprincess:
HikazePrincess Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
lucky for me my friends are always eager to ask questions about my OCs
i'd never even heard the term "sue" until this, if that tells u anything
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You're lucky. XD Years ago when i was new to writing and RPing people were overly cruel. yes, my OC at the time was a Sue, but they didn't try helping. they said my oc made them want to kill themselves with a rusted knife. I've learned a lot since then, but those memories stuck with me. So I like to help writers/rpers who may have a "Sue" problem.
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:iconhikazeprincess:
HikazePrincess Featured By Owner Jul 26, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist

well in my case, usually if there's a part of my OC work i havent settled on yet, i ask friends for advice

i actually have a few friends who are impressed with what ive done and adore my OCs

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:iconchickychicky003:
ChickyChicky003 Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2013
Amen.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:iconfblikeplz:
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:icondaredreemer:
DareDreemer Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You tell them.... (high fives)
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Thanks ^^
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:icondaredreemer:
DareDreemer Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Welcome!
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:iconthewolfwithicyeyes:
thewolfwithicyeyes Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Student General Artist
well said Stickie dear.
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you ^^
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:iconirys13:
Irys13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh dear heavens... Thank GOODNESS someone pointed this out.  Every role player, or writer at one point of time has a Mary Sue like character, but the better they get at writing the less Sue like the character becomes. I even had one of those characters, but as I got better I managed to change it. I have plenty of OC's, one of which even carries a gun on her at all times, but has absolutely no idea how to use it. I have a character that is very disagreeable at times and makes things hard for the sake of making things hard. 

Frankly, I find that if someone is going to give hate on your OC or your character, if they do not offer on how they would like it better or any constructive critisicm, they have no business calling out your OC. =w=
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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Agreed.

It goes that way for everything. Don't hate on anyone's work, art or writing. they worked hard. It's much better to offer suggestions to improve.
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:iconirys13:
Irys13 Featured By Owner Jul 27, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Couldn't have said it better myself. ~
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:iconpeacefulinvasion:
peacefulinvasion Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist Artist

Personally I think this.

 

Sues are only the result of inexperience. Which is honestly why I hate marry sue hate. Unless the oc is godmodding its not a crime to have a marry sue. And not all self inserts are marry sues. Seriously guys? Do you even realize that nobody actually goes out of their way to look up how the character and the author are related. Nobody cares who the character was based on really. If you say otherwise than your lying big time.

 

I remember getting serious hate because my oc yuki was a marry sue. :facepalm: seriously that's how you get rid of good authors. By bashing them in the early stages of development. And at the end of the day if they don't take the critique that's ok. Its their character not your character.

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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
My point exactly. a Sue is a stepping stone in learning how to create better characters. Not a crime.

And Godmods? Gahhh That's a whole other thing entirely. I've been Godmodded a few times and that's one way to make me drop a RP like a ton of bricks! (Though I do mention OOC that I feel they are Godmodding and ask them to tone it down. but if they don't then I drop out of the RP) When it comes to Sues.... I don't RP with them, either at this point. But if someone asks for help with their OC they think may be a sue, I will get to know their character a little more so that I can properly help.
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:iconpeacefulinvasion:
peacefulinvasion Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist Artist

I'll rp with sues I mean they don't exactly ruin the entire rp for me until they start shoving competition aside and hogging the spotlight.

 

again marry sues are not that big of a deal. Its just the deciants that baaaw about them without looking deeper into the picture.

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:iconstickiebun13:
StickieBun13 Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I've had too many personal bad experiences with Sues. That's the only reason I avoid RPs with them. I try to avoid drama.
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:iconpeacefulinvasion:
peacefulinvasion Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2013  Hobbyist Artist
:shrug: same here.
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